Talk:Battle of Waterloo

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What happened to "Waterloo_in_popular_culture" wiki article

It looks like the article was deleted, and the reference to Abba was added to this article. Keith H99 (talk) 20:26, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, indeed

Record of its deletion

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Waterloo in popular culture

Scrape prior to deletion.

[1]

Nothing further to see, move along. Keith H99 (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Peninsular War veterans and Waterloo

Many years ago, I was given my older cousin's copy of Patterson Blick Instant Pictures transfers Book number 20, which had been published in 1970, just in time for the Bondarchuk movie about the battle. One of the things that stuck in my mind was the mention that the British Army was in North America. I thought no more of this, my age being in single figures, but I always accepted this as a fact.

In more recent years, I have questioned this. A sticker book for children is not a reliable source, granted. Yet, this seems to have come from Chandler's 1966 publication, and appears to have gone unchallenged. p.1093

At best the Allied army was a very hybrid collection of multinational formations, and the number of British troops present formed rather less than half of the men in the field. Furthermore, even they were not for the most part the veterans of the Peninsular War, most of whom were on their way in transports to North America. A substantial part of the British contingent at Waterloo was made up of depot battalions and men from militia units, while much of the cavalry had never seen service outside the British Isles. Yet they fought magnificently throughout a long and exhausting day, ably assisted by their comrades of the King’s German Legion and the other Allied contingents, most particularly the Nassauers.

Given that the Treaty of Ghent had been signed on 24 December 1814, there would have been no reason for British troops to have been sent to North America during 1815.

The last battle of the War of 1812 was the Battle of New Orleans. Some of the combatants were present at Waterloo. There has been very little interest on the part of British historians in the War of 1812, nonetheless the assertion that 'veterans of the Peninsular War, most of whom were on their way in transports to North America' was not challenged at the time.

In 2001, Donald Graves has challenged the statement that most of the Peninsular War veterans were sent to North America.

[https://www.warof1812.ca/redcoats.htm The Redcoats are Coming!: British Troop Movements to North America in 1814 by Donald E. Graves]

Similarly, in 2005, Barbero's opinion, reproduced in the article, contradicts the statement made by Chandler.

All of the British Army troops were regular soldiers and the majority of them had served in the Peninsula. Of the 23 British regiments in action, only 4 (the 14th, 33rd, 69th, and 73rd Foot) had not served in the Peninsula, and a similar level of experience was to be found in the British cavalry and artillery.

One advantage of researching the regiments of that time period today, as opposed to performing the task in 1966, is the way in which various regimental histories, detailing the postings of regiments, have been digitised and can be accessed from home.

To my mind, Chandler's comment seems like "donkeys led by lions", a statement that I do not believe is proven, when looking at unit histories to determine where various regiments were. There was no fleet of transports shipping Peninsular War veterans to the USA in March 1815, when Napoleon's return to mainland France caused panic among the nations of the Seventh Coalition. Keith H99 (talk) 23:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

A similar comment from Cornwell, pg.17, there being an absence of inline citations:

But Britain had just fought a war with the United States, and many of the best regiments, veterans of Wellington's victories, were still across the Atlantic. They were returning, and some battalions found themselves travelling straight from America to the Netherlands. The Duke would have been more confident if he had possessed his Peninsular army, which had been one of the best that ever fought under British colours.

It reads like Robert Remini, regurgitating info from popular histories without tying back to source material to verify the assertion.

For 'some battalions', there is the battalion of the 4th Foot, and the detachment of 5 companies of riflemen from the 3rd Battalion, 95th Foot.

• The 4th Foot did not go straight to the Netherlands. It briefly returned to England in May 1815, before embarking for Flanders a few weeks later to fight at the Battle of Waterloo in June. Source: Cannon (1839), pg 129.
• The riflemen detachment embarked aboard HMS Dover and the Norfolk transport, which set sail on 4 April 1815. They disembarked on the south coast of England on 2 June 1815. They embarked at Dover on 10 July 1815 and disembarked at Antwerp on 13 July. In due course they joined the other 2 companies of the 3rd Battalion, upon reaching Paris. Source: Surtees (1833) pp. 403-409.

So, 'some battalions' was in fact just one battalion. Keith H99 (talk) 20:59, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I do not see how your argument affects the wording of the Wikipedia article as it stands. Urselius (talk) 09:34, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The wording of the article did not reflect the wording used by Chandler, so it was amended. There is the inconsistency within the article that on the one hand, it states that most of Wellington's veterans of the Peninsular War were on transport ships heading to North America in March 1815, and this is later contradicted by the more recent output of Barbero.

The elephant in the room, as I see it, is there would have been a reduction in the British Army in 1814 as a consequence of peace. The article makes no mention that some of the veterans had been effectively made redundant, and as they were not part of the smaller peacetime establishment, that is why they were not available.

There was a reduction in the Royal Marine establishment in June 1814, it took effect 17 August 1814, and this was completed in September 1814. It had comprised 31,400 men in 182 administrative companies. This was reduced to 120 companies, I do not know how many men were in the peacetime establishment of the Royal Marines.

So, in conclusion, my post relates to the question around the quality of the British troops under Wellington's command. The argument that a number of veterans were in North America does seem to have been countered by Barbero and Graves. The question about just how smaller the British Army was, as a consequence of the peace dividend occurring after the first abdication of Napoleon in April 1814, fourteen months prior to this battle, does not get addressed in the article, that I can tell.

The apologists bemoan that Wellington in 1815 did not have his Peninsular War army, with which to fight Boney, and that this was unfair. I daresay that MacArthur was in a similar position in 1945,sorry that should be 1950, as compared to 1945 insofar as he did not have access to a large, coherent apparatus that was well-tuned after several years of consistent operation. Keith H99 (talk) 19:52, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

At its peak, in 1813, the British Army contained over 250,000 men. By 1821 the army numbered only 101,000 combatants. That's quite a reduction from war establishment to peace establishment. Keith H99 (talk) 20:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Would it be possible for you to boil your argument down to something readily digestible? Then say exactly what you want changed. Chandler was certainly inaccurate some of the time. He says that after the charge of the British heavy cavalry, "... 2,500 Allied horsemen had been laid low ..." an entirely ridiculous statement given the lie by many eyewitnesses in the heavies and Uxbridge himself, who described their considerable and useful activity later in the day. Urselius (talk) 12:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

In essence, there are those who will say that Wellington was disadvantaged, insofar as he didn't have the Peninsular War British Army of 1813.

Chandler says that all the veterans were in North America, which is wrong. It's an easy theory that has not been researched whatsoever. Cornwell has fallen into the same trap and made things up in support, which is not good.

The fact that more than twelve months of peace will have seen the British Army on a different footing, and therefore smaller, does not get addressed in the article. This will take a while to research, and I will need to set time aside to do this.

There's an argument for cohesion in seasoned units, which could apply to the British infantry, the KGL and the Brunswickers, which does not apply to the new Hanoverian & Dutch-Belgian armies.

I do see the first paragraph as having something of a nationalistic element to it, "Even with his right hand tied behind his back, Wellington and his not quite suitable British troops still got one over on Boney" with a narrative that sounds like Dad's Army meets The A Team. That fourth paragraph also has the risk of a nationalistic element akin to "Those Dutchies were rubbish, just like the Portuguese were rubbish in WW1," whilst ignoring that Wellington's best cavalry were arguably the KGL. Keith H99 (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Which first and fourth paragraphs are these? The fourth paragraph in the lead does not mention the Dutch. Urselius (talk) 21:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

By the end of 1814 the British government had some 47,000 fewer men with the colours than when Napoleon had abdicated less than nine months before. These cuts fell hardest on foreign corps and second line troops but cavalry and artillery were also sharply reduced (7,000 artillerymen and drivers) and many excellent second battalions were disbanded (Fortescue History of the British Army vol 10 p 228). Keith H99 (talk) 14:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

'In Dec 1814 the army was reduced, mainly by disbanding 22 x 2nd battalions.'

Source: BRITISH ARMY ESTABLISHMENTS DURING THE NAPOLEONIC WARS (PART 1)

Roderick MacArthur, Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, (Volume 87 Number 350 in Summer 2009) Keith H99 (talk) 15:11, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Consigned, I hope this is of interest, regarding the incorrect assertion by Chandler that in June 1815 the British Army of the Peninsular War was being shipped to fight a war in North America that was ended on 24 December 1814. Keith H99 (talk) 21:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Keith H99. I agree it seems like Chandler is mistaken or incorrect, but is it challenged directly in another source? I wonder how to present this in the article without using original research or synthesis. Consigned (talk) 23:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the text as it currently stands:

Chandler incorrectly asserts that most of the British veterans of the Peninsular War were being transported to North America to fight in the War of 1812.

@Consigned would you be able to edit the sentence, in a manner that addresses your synthesis concern, and will result in the CN tag being removed, please? Keith H99 (talk) 08:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Wdford, subsequent research since 1966 calls into question Chandler's comment as a reliable source. That said, I think Barbero should be cited. Keith H99 (talk) 14:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Cool. I am happy to cite them both. Wdford (talk) 14:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I was likewise puzzled by Chandler's comment about British militia

'only the British contingent was entirely composed of regular soldiers, because in Great Britain constitutional guarantees blocked the use of the militia outside the kingdom.'

Barbero, pg21

Currently unable to find where the Peninsular War veterans (only 4 regiments were not there) quote is from; it is not Barbero. Keith H99 (talk) 15:12, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

In general, I am happy to accept Chandler as a reliable source, so I would not lightly discount him, unless he is contradicted by another reliable source. However if there is a contradicting source, then fair enough – please add it all in.

I have seen mentions elsewhere that the British Army was not as solid as Wellington would have liked – there must be some foundation to this? Just how inexperienced were they?

In cases where an army is being deliberately demobilised after a war, it seems to be the tendency that men who want to go home are released, and those who want to stay are then grouped into a smaller number of battalions. It would be silly to hold onto men who want to return to their families, while kicking out men who have nowhere else to go?

If they had demobilized every second battalion etc, as reported, then when they are preparing for a new war, they would have tried to recruit additional men, and a lot of those discharged veterans may have volunteered to join back in - perhaps even in different regiments?

The concept of “regular soldiers” does not automatically mean they were Peninsular veterans. It is possible that many British line regiments were present in the Peninsular, but that they were not involved in serious battles, or that they had high turnover of personnel in the years before Waterloo – perhaps due to retirements, or demands in North America? I do however agree that it is unlikely that they were all green troops – nobody would try to take on Napoleon with an army of rookies.

As a temporary compromise, maybe we could just leave out entirely the text “All of the British Army troops were regular soldiers, and the majority of them had served in the Peninsula. [citation needed] Of the 23 British line infantry regiments in action, only four (the 14th, 33rd, 69th, and 73rd Foot) had not served in the Peninsula, and a similar level of experience was to be found in the British cavalry and artillery. Chandler asserts that most of the British veterans of the Peninsular War were being transported to North America.[61] ”. I’m sure that there are reliable sources somewhere, and then we can fill in the blanks when we find them.Wdford (talk) 15:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It was my misapprehension that the following, and an extra bit of text, were from Barbero. Only the extra bit is from Barbero, though. ('In addition, there were 17,000 Dutch and Belgian troops, 11,000 from Hanover, 6,000 from Brunswick, and 3,000 from Nassau.')

All of the British Army troops were regular soldiers and the majority of them had served in the Peninsula. Of the 23 British regiments in action, only 4 (the 14th, 33rd, 69th, and 73rd Foot) had not served in the Peninsula, and a similar level of experience was to be found in the British cavalry and artillery.

In fact, Barbero picks up on the inexperience of British cavalry when compared with the French, on page 141, accessed via the archive.org site. The first part of the text looks plausible to me, but where did it come from?

This was in the article in 2022

Of these, 25,000 were British.. All of the British Army troops were regular soldiers, but only 7,000 of them were Peninsular War veterans.

Not good. Keith H99 (talk) 16:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Here is the anonymous edit

edited by 82.13.181.124 (talk) at 22:25, 4 November 2022 (I have removed incorrect statistics - 30,500 British troops fought at Waterloo, not 25,000, and the claim that only 7,000 of these had seen action in the Peninsula is extremely inaccurate. The source for this erroneous claim was Longford's biography of Wellington. Goodness knows where she got that figure from but it's certainly not based on research.)

Hopefully the text can be attributed, else it is POV and the Longford content ought to be added back, in the absence of source material. Keith H99 (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Is Longford generally considered to be a reliable source? Wdford (talk) 22:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Good question. The info attributable to Longford was added at some point prior to 2019, so it would appear. Keith H99 (talk) 10:11, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Looks like it was added at the start of 2007. Keith H99 (talk) 14:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Headcount for Wellington's Allied Army

Hi @Ochoa diego,

The article used to state the following:

there were 17,000 Dutch and Belgian troops, 11,000 from Hanover, 6,000 from Brunswick, and 3,000 from Nassau

You have amended the text to the following, but these new numbers are not from Barbero:

there were 21,035 (28.3%) Dutch-Belgian and Nassuer troops, 11,496(15.5%) from Hanover and 6,124(8.2) from Brunswick.

Can you please amend the article, so the actual source of the numbers that you used is showing.

Thanks! Keith H99 (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC) Keith H99 (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. Ochoa diego (talk) 21:08, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks! Keith H99 (talk) 21:12, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Do these sources definitively lump all the Nassau troops into the Dutch-Belgian army? I think that a consensus of available scholarly sources supporting this is absolutely necessary before it is included in a Wikipedia article. A couple of sources is not sufficient. Wikipedia has to follow the scholarship, it cannot create precedent! See the extensive discussion on this exact subject above. Urselius (talk) 10:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Britain the sole world superpower until 1914?

After 1870 Britain was surpassed by both Germany and the United States. 2A00:23C5:C419:D301:2CE3:F155:34D2:62B6 (talk) 17:13, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

I've removed what was in the lead. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:49, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

I would say that Germany was on par with the UK however the United States would not be a superpower until the end of the second world war William J Kennington (talk) 21:31, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Article review

It has been a while since this article has been reviewed, so I took a look and noticed lots of uncited statements, including entire paragraphs. This article is also over 13,000 words, and I think the article is considered WP:TOOBIG and some of the information needs to be moved to other articles or removed as too much detail. Should this article go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 01:00, 4 May 2025 (UTC)